So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. Why did I smile? I will pray for him a lot in the coming days! Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. I might get around to it, at some point. The rule about not eating the fruit was just as much an opportunity for Adam/Eve to choose good as it was to choose evil. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. TULIP stands for total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible . CALVIN!, The Bible? Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. They tend to become kings when in power too long. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? But so what. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Those wishes are not uncommon. Indeed. There is a prominent member in our church who is also in our study group. We do better together than we do on our own. However, they are limited, just as we are. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. And yes, I said so on Dennys blog. The promises are over the top. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. I have tried to track the historical development of the non-Calvinist position. And to be honest, using the TULIP definition of calvinist, Id have to say Im a 2 point calvinist (I believe in the perseverence of the saints, and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.) Energy is really transferred from one thing to another. * Okay, end of sermon. To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. "I want to have a discussion with you. It is counterproductive. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language) They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. I am spelling out what is being taught, at least to my untrained ear, under the name of Calvinism, in hopes that we can all learn to: a)recognize where we are coming from, and b) respect those with very different takes on these things as brothers, sisters, and seekers. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did. Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Id like to agree with both, if thats ok. We need exactly the right kind of nutrition at exactly the right kind, but maybe not the milky kind because we emerge from trauma both far too old and still too young. There are anti-Calvinists with websites who have examples, quotes taken from books by pro-Calvinists where the pro-C equates Cal to the Gospel itself, their point being to hint that anyone not embracing Cal is not a Christian, then you have the Cals who come right out and say it. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. Im glad I know that now. I get what youre saying. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. That is the only argument they have. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. I hope that alone will entice some to read it. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. Purity of Ideology, Dee. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. It was you! First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. I had no reason not to believe. We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. I can see why many walk away . * Okay, end of sermon. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Please continue to dialog. First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). Thinks youre cute. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson It is only partly totally contaminated with leaven. It means you are thinking for yourself and we encourage you to continue to be the loyal opposition. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. Tell himyou love himanyway. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! I think that is why it is good that Dee/Deb use the term Cavinista. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. In my mind its all about power. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! Why did he care so much about what the Bible said? Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Life is full of uncertainties, and we will never be able to rid our lives of uncertainties, of doubts, of questions. Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. There are many bite marks on my tongue. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. Breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and formula cant touch this aspect of it -scientists have analyzed the composition of the milk weeks/months and have found that the structure changes to meet babies need at each stage of development. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. This is simply human and not related to social faux pas. However, they are limited, just as we are. Meyer 17. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. Which also prove that God does not fit into our nice, neat packages. So far, we both agree. Alexander Maclaren 15. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. Craigs got it right. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. It contains a list of 16 "behaviors" to look for when seeking to smoke out Calvinistic pastors. I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. She called me and we had a good talk. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. We have a question for you? Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Sois that what we are saying? (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? Last year when I was sued, I had heard of Calvinism, but didnt really know what and how it had affected/influenced me personally. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist.